Author Topic: The crazies are back.  (Read 13831 times)

AirForceOne

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2014, 12:50:32 AM »
So wicho... instead of picking apart all of our statements and hardly explaining yourself (Strawman, etc).  You suggest law enforcement as a whole be "reevaluated".  Do tell what your vision is, I'd love to hear it. 

It's not law enforcement's fault that public opinion sucks.  It's a societal thing- media reports a story, and the public convicts and detracts immediately.  Case in point: 18yo is 'likely" drugged and forcibly raped over the weekend.  The 'public', citizens on the Facebook page and news article: It's her fault!  She shouldn't be in the club!  She's young and dumb, I'll bet she will think twice next time!  The Sheriff's office sucks!  Why aren't they at the hotel arresting the suspect?  They have no idea what they are doing!  Just another case of next morning regret!  The public has already blamed the girl for being a victim and blamed us for not having a crystal ball or psychic that can peer into the victim's unconscious state to identify her assailant.  ::)

A second scenario, just days prior: Guy reports a prowler via 911 and says he has him detained.  I arrived and find a male with his face literally smashed in, and the caller ended up arrested.  Same public: That guy got what he had coming to him!  Why did he go to jail for hitting a peeping tom?  He did society a favor! The sheriff's office is full of idiots, they arrested the wrong guy!  Never mind the fact that the victim is mentally handicapped and homeless.  They already convicted him of being a peeping tom and accost my agency for ensuring that everyone's right were protected.  Let the record show the victim sustain a broken nose, two shattered orbitals, a broken cheekbone, and his jaw was broken in at least three different spots.  The aforementioned issues, which happen everywhere, is why I said law enforcement is always fucked in public opinion, even when we ensuring people's rights.   ::)

I stand by my statement that people in general are fucking crazy.  I did not say you were, but you did just say that you going to commit an act of mass murder.  I don't know if you will or not.  I don't know you personally, so you just might be crazy as all get out. 

"Standard Protocol"?  Do tell me the policy in place that governs the pursuit of suspects on a GTA style rampage.  What a second, I'll tell you what my policy states:  If the threat to the public is greater by the suspects being at large, use every available resource to find and apprehend/neutralize the suspects.  If somebody set off bombs here (we were damn close, but fortunately that nut nearly murdered his wife so we were able to locate his caches of bombs planted around the city) I'm sure the pictures would look no different from Boston.

Anybody is authorized to use force.  Sure the thin blue exists, it's a brotherhood.  That doesn't that mean every cop in the world is a dirty bastard with a drop gun and baggies of dope to sell in his patrol car.  Cops are human, and human fuck up sometimes.  The human element is naturally flawed, so there are flaws in every human organization and program.  Unfortunately some bad cops have violated rights and taken lives.  But think about the big picture and how many cops are patrolling at any given moment.  You're acting as if we hold public executions daily in cul de sacs.

As far as law enforcement not being responsible for public safety, why the hell do all these citizens call us hundreds upon thousands of times each day?  What the hell is with that?  Who is responsible for public safety, pray tell.  And inform your fellow citizens as well!

And mad bombers.  I don't care if you're literally setting of bombs or if you're Breaking Bad in a RV.  Many offenders are repeat offenders and live a lifestyle of continually breaking the law.  It doesn't matter where you are in the world, you are at risk for some crazy MF to do some crazy MF'ing shit.  Name a public venue that has not been shot up or blown up.  The world as a whole is unstable and this country is no different.




Onyx Dragon

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2014, 01:05:14 AM »
Meaty it takes a while to mobilize the logistics of an operation of that magnitude.  Surely you don't think the FBI has a series of tactical squads set in warehouses every few miles in lying in wait.  It looks scary as hell, I wouldn't try to say it's not.  But take into account the gravity of that situation, you basically had a real life GTA situation, and the results was a five star wanted level.  :lol:

Onyx it's a challenge to bring military assets together for an operation like this.  The Posse Comitatus Act does not allow for it.  The National Guard and now Reserve can be deployed for domestic events, but their primary function would likely be containment and security.  The suspect pursuit and so forth would still fall to law enforcement.

I get that AF1, but the fact is there's a cop in a humvee stenciled with "Military Police" on it in that picture.

Maverick

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2014, 01:06:25 AM »
Do tell what your vision is

Identifying the problem =/= solving the problem

I am only making observations about the situation and have no concrete solutions since that would distract from the earlier arguments.

Constructing a viable alternative which secures civil liberties while enforcing laws will be no simple process.


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Onyx Dragon

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2014, 01:22:41 AM »
So wicho... instead of picking apart all of our statements and hardly explaining yourself (Strawman, etc).  You suggest law enforcement as a whole be "reevaluated".  Do tell what your vision is, I'd love to hear it. 

Without even looking I'm going to say that he pushes it off somehow and says it'll be difficult.

Edit: Oh, look at that.  Shocker, Wicho is trolling Debacle.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 01:23:19 AM by Onyx Dragon »

Maverick

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2014, 02:03:57 AM »
Without even looking I'm going to say that he pushes it off somehow and says it'll be difficult.

Edit: Oh, look at that.  Shocker, Wicho is trolling Debacle.

"I predicted that he would say that and he did, which means I don't have to address it or pay attention to it. Therefore, he is only antagonizing for personal pleasure."

I don't know... does that seem productive or logical?

Do you think such a task is easy?

The current system we have is the cumulative result of centuries of trial and error. But, it is still obviously inadequate. The importance of constructing an alternative which is satisfactory warrants much more thought than I have given it.

Systemic reform could accumulate over time, case by case. The prerequisite for gradual reform is the public's vocalized desire for it. In order to foment that desire and activism, it is necessary to point out problems.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 02:09:20 AM by wicho »


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s-10 maniac

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2014, 03:08:05 AM »
Without even looking I'm going to say that he pushes it off somehow and says it'll be difficult.

Edit: Oh, look at that.  Shocker, Wicho is trolling Debacle.

Fast question.  In the time I have been on these boards I don't believe I have ever witnessed you criticize law enforcement.

Can they do any wrong?

Is there a point that must be reached before you say "too far!"?

Government MUST be criticized.  That is a simple truth that must be present in-order for a free society to exist.  That includes ALL levels of government.

I understand the burden our cops carry.  I really fucking do.  But when doors get kicked in and family pets are shot, or husbands who have no idea who is entering the home are shot....or people are simply beaten, they may as well be redcoat soldiers IMO.

Having a badge does not make whatever you do right and having the best of intentions can go fly a kite when citizens lives are on the line.  Mistakes MUST be owned and paid for dearly.

As far as the media goes....whatever happened to that Chris Dorner thing with the LAPD? When that cabin burst into flames and those cops were screaming get the gas, that shit got locked down FAST.  Coverage was almost non fucking existent.

Sad thing is, Police are now just local foot soldiers for local, state, and federal politicians, and the decent cops get caught up in it.  The war on drugs has only fueled this.

And mad bombers.  I don't care if you're literally setting of bombs or if you're Breaking Bad in a RV.  Many offenders are repeat offenders and live a lifestyle of continually breaking the law.  It doesn't matter where you are in the world, you are at risk for some crazy MF to do some crazy MF'ing shit.  Name a public venue that has not been shot up or blown up.  The world as a whole is unstable and this country is no different.

And yet on it goes...even with the increased militarization of police forces, better government surveillance, more gun control or what have you....How does that old quote go?  Trading liberties for securities and you'll have neither?

Edit: Oh, look at that.  Shocker, Wicho is trolling Debacle.

From what I can tell he is making a valid attempt at arguing his point.  Calling him a troll in this instance was not only unwarranted but ridiculous.

INB4 tinfoil hat slurs
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 03:10:35 AM by s-10 maniac »

AirForceOne

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2014, 03:43:30 AM »

And yet on it goes...even with the increased militarization of police forces, better government surveillance, more gun control or what have you....How does that old quote go?  Trading liberties for securities and you'll have neither?


From what I can tell he is making a valid attempt at arguing his point.  Calling him a troll in this instance was not only unwarranted but ridiculous.

INB4 tinfoil hat slurs

I'm not calling for removing any liberties or rights from the general public.  I fully acknowledge your statement and agree wholeheartedly.  I only wish to ready for anything, no matter how slight the chances may be.

s-10 maniac

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2014, 11:40:40 PM »
I'm not calling for removing any liberties or rights from the general public.  I fully acknowledge your statement and agree wholeheartedly.  I only wish to ready for anything, no matter how slight the chances may be.

I think we need to just accept the fact that there will always be some things that the police and public are not ready for.  Things that the police will are not, and realistically should never be ready for.

Kill-dozer for instance. Caught police way off guard.  Very freak occurrence though, doesn't mean cops should have a Bradley, or anti tank munitions in the rare chance it ever happens again.

And I get that you're talking about things that have a higher chance to repeat, but still.  Good intentions can get fucked in my opinion.  My fear is how the increasingly militarized police will use the increasingly militarized equipment in the future.  At what point do they simply become military police?

MadFairlane

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2014, 01:15:28 AM »
  At what point do they simply become military police?

Probably when they get those cool helmets with MP on them.

I've seen it in M*A*S*H.

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AirForceOne

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2014, 01:41:24 AM »
I think we need to just accept the fact that there will always be some things that the police and public are not ready for.  Things that the police will are not, and realistically should never be ready for.

Kill-dozer for instance. Caught police way off guard.  Very freak occurrence though, doesn't mean cops should have a Bradley, or anti tank munitions in the rare chance it ever happens again.

And I get that you're talking about things that have a higher chance to repeat, but still.  Good intentions can get fucked in my opinion.  My fear is how the increasingly militarized police will use the increasingly militarized equipment in the future.  At what point do they simply become military police?

I see what you're saying.  Again, I'm not calling for every cop car to be an up armored Humvee with a M61 on top, just access to the tools for those high risk warrants and violent felons who have no intention of going to jail and would rather die, killing as many citizen/cops as possible.

AirForceOne

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Maverick

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2014, 11:39:47 PM »
Case in point:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/09/justice/las-vegas-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

A civilian with a CCW also died in the event after placing himself in the line of fire and potentially ended the entire thing after the shooters saw resistance.

I don't see your point.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2014, 11:45:51 PM by wicho »


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Meatywand

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2014, 02:16:38 PM »
No amount of sweet Tacticool OPERATOR gear is going to protect you from an ambush like that, our troops still take casualties from ambush attacks, and their gear is better than what the average police officer carries.
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AirForceOne

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2014, 08:20:16 PM »
A civilian with a CCW also died in the event after placing himself in the line of fire and potentially ended the entire thing after the shooters saw resistance.

I don't see your point.

There is no thread ending point to be had.  I'm just reiterating that people are nucking futz and it's not unreasonable to law enforcement to have access to armored vehicles and heavy weapons.

Meatywand

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2014, 09:55:04 AM »
Because that would have made an ounce of difference in this case....
Quote from:  Sergeant D
Nothing says Alpha like getting your anus violated by another man

I gazed through the open window upon a full moon.
His name was Meatywand.

AirForceOne

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2014, 06:14:42 AM »
Because that would have made an ounce of difference in this case....

So you think these two were the only people who would ever set to ambush a few cops that they likely never dealt with?  There could very well be an entire group of nutjobs in some compound somewhere (like the ones they busted up in Florida last year) planning more attacks.  There was a group in Michigan that was foiled not long ago; their plan was a murder (by ambush) a police officer/s, and then lie in wait until the public funerals to ambush and kill as many as possible due to the high concentration. 

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/09/justice/florida-supremacists-arrests/

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/TheLaw/michigan-christian-militia-hutaree-targeted-law-enforcement/story?id=10228716

Domestic terrorism has been on the rise since the mid to late 2000s...

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map


That's why these tools have made available to law enforcement.

Meatywand

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2014, 01:30:15 PM »
But what I'm saying is that realistically, in a none duty situation like eating lunch, all the gear in the world won't make a difference if somebody walks up and puts one in your dome. I certainly think police officers involved in patrolling sketchy ass places or serving high risk warrants need all the protective gear they can get....but in this case no amount of gear could have saved those officers unfortunately.
Quote from:  Sergeant D
Nothing says Alpha like getting your anus violated by another man

I gazed through the open window upon a full moon.
His name was Meatywand.

Onyx Dragon

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2014, 04:48:06 PM »
But what I'm saying is that realistically, in a none duty situation like eating lunch, all the gear in the world won't make a difference if somebody walks up and puts one in your dome. I certainly think police officers involved in patrolling sketchy ass places or serving high risk warrants need all the protective gear they can get....but in this case no amount of gear could have saved those officers unfortunately.

You're right, there are cases where you'd need to be encased in an iron suit.  However, I don't think it's bad for them to have access to as much protective gear as they want to wear.  There are officers who don't wear their vests even in these days, and there are officers who want vests, leg protection, etc because they know there are crazies in the world.  Give them the option to feel as safe as they want.  The safer they feel, the better IMO.

AirForceOne

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2014, 07:30:18 PM »
Because that would have made an ounce of difference in this case....

I missed this post in between replies.  Nope, nothing would have stopped this; one can argue training, alertness, any number of details, but if a bad guy really, really wants to get you, he will.  That's the unfortunate truth.

Law enforcement is the way it is because of the public being the way that is.  Simple as that.  It sounded like you were suggesting that enforcement doesn't need these type of tools at all, at least that's how I interpreted your posts. 

Meatywand

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2014, 11:13:38 PM »
I don't think they need the extreme tools like LMGs, .50 cal rifles and armored vehicles, but as far as bullet proof vests/plates, sure, I whole heartedly agree with them having that. But once you start giving cops military grade weapons and vehicles you're down a dangerous slippery slope.
Quote from:  Sergeant D
Nothing says Alpha like getting your anus violated by another man

I gazed through the open window upon a full moon.
His name was Meatywand.

Onyx Dragon

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2014, 12:23:24 AM »
I don't think they need the extreme tools like LMGs, .50 cal rifles and armored vehicles, but as far as bullet proof vests/plates, sure, I whole heartedly agree with them having that. But once you start giving cops military grade weapons and vehicles you're down a dangerous slippery slope.

See, I'm all for L.E. out gunning the people with AK-47s and such.  But I see what you're saying about that, there's no reason for them to use them against regular folks like you and I...well, like me anyway Bwaaahahaha :mrgreen:

AirForceOne

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2014, 06:16:30 AM »
I don't think they need the extreme tools like LMGs, .50 cal rifles and armored vehicles, but as far as bullet proof vests/plates, sure, I whole heartedly agree with them having that. But once you start giving cops military grade weapons and vehicles you're down a dangerous slippery slope.



Local citizen, tattoo artist, dope dealer, rapist.  Those are his guns in his panic room.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on the armored trucks and heavy guns Meaty.  :lol:
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 06:17:09 AM by AirForceOne »

Meatywand

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2014, 05:32:57 PM »
Yes, but do you have a department issued AR? You should, and statistically that puts you above the fire power level of most criminals, and at the worst on equal footing. I shit you not, a local department here had a SAW on display at their booth at a gun show...I highly doubt any one in that department was qualified to operate something like that. If they can figure out a way to up-armor standard patrol units, I'm not against that, but full on armored personnel carries and up-armored Hummvees are way over the line for the majority of US police departments.
Quote from:  Sergeant D
Nothing says Alpha like getting your anus violated by another man

I gazed through the open window upon a full moon.
His name was Meatywand.

AirForceOne

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2014, 07:42:08 PM »
Yes, but do you have a department issued AR? You should, and statistically that puts you above the fire power level of most criminals, and at the worst on equal footing. I shit you not, a local department here had a SAW on display at their booth at a gun show...I highly doubt any one in that department was qualified to operate something like that. If they can figure out a way to up-armor standard patrol units, I'm not against that, but full on armored personnel carries and up-armored Hummvees are way over the line for the majority of US police departments.

I was issued a 10.5" AR15 about three months ago.  It took an SRT member and two patrol units getting killed in less than a year for it to happen, and that incident was in 2010.  A SAW is an extreme weapon no doubt, but I guarantee there were plenty of people qualified to operate it.  That would make a ten figure liability lawsuit if there was a 'mishap' with a weapon like that.  Every use of force model I've seen allows for meeting the force and stepping one level above it.  If they'd let me, you come at me with an AK I'm coming back with a bazooka.

Armored patrol cars is a long way off.  The ludicrous weight that comes with that, along with the extreme cost, make it pretty much a fiscal impossibility.   There are a few enterprising manufacturers making portable armor sort of, but it's really new tech (as far as law enforcement is concerned) and thus crazy expensive.  We've had budget cut seven years straight, we had to deactivate all of our specialized units just to keep the show running. 

The Lenco we have is shared between 9 agencies spread across 3 counties and about 3500 square miles.  The "majority" of police and law enforcement agencies don't have, and won't get tools like these.  They will call the next level up (S.O., State, or federal authorities) when they need that kind of assistance. 

Meatywand

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2014, 09:38:45 AM »
I just...I dunno, a SAW to me just doesn't belong in the hands of a civilian. Its a military weapon meant to be used in war zones, not on the streets of a town like mine. The shared nature of y'alls armored vehicle makes it seem a bit less extreme, since its spread between multiple agencies, but here, both cities have them, both parishes have them and they make sure to roll them in the Mardi Gras parades every year, with SWAT dudes all Gearqueered out riding on them and scowling at the crowd and not throwing any damn beads :lol: It really makes me wonder where they got the funding for  the damn things. Its pretty excessive for 4 of them to be in an area as small as mine, especially considering we have a huge Air Force base here that I'm sure could loan out something...I mean they are already our go to for anything bomb related, AF EOD handles it for a large part of the North LA area.
Quote from:  Sergeant D
Nothing says Alpha like getting your anus violated by another man

I gazed through the open window upon a full moon.
His name was Meatywand.