Author Topic: The crazies are back.  (Read 14357 times)

Onyx Dragon

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The crazies are back.
« on: May 02, 2014, 08:54:12 AM »
Aaaand here we go with more crazy talk.  Has anyone else seen this crazy stuff popping up?

http://viralsurvival.com/2014/04/30/john-roberts-signed-off-on-obamas-removal-for-treason/

AirForceOne

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2014, 03:19:57 AM »
I have and all of it is laughable at best...  but so many people are buying into it that I'm waiting for somebody to do something stupid.

Maverick

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2014, 06:05:46 PM »
Obama is being bitch slapped by Russia and China, Crimea fell without so much as a whimper from the state department, Russian bombers are patrolling the US coast again and our foreign policy is the weakest it has been since Carter.

I didn't even touch spending, the national debt, militarization of law enforcement, expansion of agency powers and controversial laws that have been put into place.

This talk about trying to remove Obama as acting president is going to ramp up.


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Meatywand

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2014, 08:07:04 PM »
Unfortunately Obongo hasn't blatantly violated the constitution enough to begin impeachment proceedings.
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Maverick

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2014, 08:55:46 PM »
Unfortunately Obongo hasn't blatantly violated the constitution enough to begin impeachment proceedings.

You ruse master, you.


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AirForceOne

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2014, 05:58:31 PM »
Obama is being bitch slapped by Russia and China, Crimea fell without so much as a whimper from the state department, Russian bombers are patrolling the US coast again and our foreign policy is the weakest it has been since Carter.

I didn't even touch spending, the national debt, militarization of law enforcement, expansion of agency powers and controversial laws that have been put into place.

This talk about trying to remove Obama as acting president is going to ramp up.


I've got to point out this particular argument is invalid.  The POTUS has done little, if anything, to push forth the militarization of civilian law enforcement.  I've been with my agency for 7 years, and the only government lease that we got was a DHS grant to acquire a Lenco BearCat.  Per our arrangement, we share it with all neighbor agencies and counties.  You can thank incidents like Waco, Oklahoma City, the north Hollywood shootout, 9/11, numerous school shootings and the lack of restrictions on purchasing high power weapons for this issue.   And before you go off about civilian law enforcement getting MRAPs and so forth, no one gave a shit when the government handed over tons of mil spec Humvees, 2.5T and 5T trucks to various public agencies.  It's the same program, just a different vehicle.

Since the initial SWAT programs were developed, they have increased the crossing over of military tactics and principles.  Most of your original SWAT were prior military so it's a natural carry over, but tactical operation principles remain the same regardless of the venue.  You don't send SWAT teams in after misdemeanor offenses, you send them in after known violent felons, or any other high risk situations that patrol units are not equipped to do.  you can't rant about militarization until every single patrol car is an armored truck with machine guns on top coming to take your stolen bicycle report, and also take your guns away.

Maverick

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2014, 09:27:35 PM »
I've got to point out this particular argument is invalid.  The POTUS has done little, if anything, to push forth the militarization of civilian law enforcement.  I've been with my agency for 7 years, and the only government lease that we got was a DHS grant to acquire a Lenco BearCat.  Per our arrangement, we share it with all neighbor agencies and counties.  You can thank incidents like Waco, Oklahoma City, the north Hollywood shootout, 9/11, numerous school shootings and the lack of restrictions on purchasing high power weapons for this issue.   And before you go off about civilian law enforcement getting MRAPs and so forth, no one gave a shit when the government handed over tons of mil spec Humvees, 2.5T and 5T trucks to various public agencies.  It's the same program, just a different vehicle.

Yeah... about that...


>Waco
ATF went full assault mode instead of making a deal over firearm purchases
>Oklahoma City
Politically fueled attack where the message was censured instead of discussed to try and change things to prevent another attack like this from happening
>the north Hollywood shootout
Yeah, I get this one. No problem here... even if they only happen every few decades or so.
>9/11
Wait, so you need MRAPs, tac gear and auto rifles to stop combatants from flying airplanes into buildings?
>numerous school shootings
Majority of the time, kid offs himself before police finally arrive with their shiny new DHS sourced machinery (the last kid to try this shit used knives)
>the lack of restrictions on purchasing high power weapons
What lack? You need ATF clearance for anything properly nasty and a giggle button.

I'm paraphrasing here, but you're essentially telling me that I cant be trusted with firearms, which justifies higher militarization of law enforcement. I do take anything you say about "the public" personally, for I am the public.

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Since the initial SWAT programs were developed, they have increased the crossing over of military tactics and principles.  Most of your original SWAT were prior military so it's a natural carry over, but tactical operation principles remain the same regardless of the venue.  You don't send SWAT teams in after misdemeanor offenses, you send them in after known violent felons, or any other high risk situations that patrol units are not equipped to do.  you can't rant about militarization until every single patrol car is an armored truck with machine guns on top coming to take your stolen bicycle report, and also take your guns away.
(Translation: it's not true unless the most extreme case applies)



Law enforcement has gone full "we are the law" mode yet owe no responsibility to the safety of the public.

No, seriously, they dont. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

Further justification of these practices will corner you into an argument stating that the public can't be trusted, but enforcement can be.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 10:19:40 PM by wicho »


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Meatywand

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2014, 09:46:23 PM »
What about the picture of the SWAT 16a pointing his rifle straight at that one dude that was snapping pics out his window? That's bullshit...Cops are turning themselves into the damn Judges like Judge Dredd, storming houses, shooting family pets, cruising in MRAPS. Or what about the incident in Pieoria where the Mayor had a SWAT team storm the house of a kid that made a Parody Twitter Account (and it was marked as a Parody Account) of the Mayor? Was that a legit move by Law Enforcement?
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Maverick

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2014, 09:55:14 PM »
What about the picture of the SWAT 16a pointing his rifle straight at that one dude that was snapping pics out his window?



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Or what about the incident in Pieoria where the Mayor had a SWAT team storm the house of a kid that made a Parody Twitter Account (and it was marked as a Parody Account) of the Mayor? Was that a legit move by Law Enforcement?

Yeah, that actually happened.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/peoria-should-fall-on-its-sword-in-twitter-debacle-says-local-paper/

No-knock raids are so commonplace that asking someone to close a parody twitter account justified sending in the troops.

It's as if they are now using plays directly from the Stasi and Sicherheitspolizei playbooks.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 10:11:28 PM by wicho »


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s-10 maniac

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2014, 12:14:48 AM »
I'm sure they had warrants for all those houses in Boston before they kicked in the doors.

Onyx Dragon

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2014, 01:17:54 AM »


Yeah, that actually happened.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/peoria-should-fall-on-its-sword-in-twitter-debacle-says-local-paper/

No-knock raids are so commonplace that asking someone to close a parody twitter account justified sending in the troops.
 
It's as if they are now using plays directly from the Stasi and Sicherheitspolizei playbooks.
That is far from FULL ON OPERATOR POLICE, YO!

Seriously, some of you have gone off, or are going off, the deep end.  You don't give enough back story to judge this situation.  You can't verify if the officer in the humvee can tell what is going on in that room, you can't tell me what that neighborhood is like, for all I know it could be Leave it to Beaver style, or it could be a meth den with several houses involved.  For all I know, that is either S.E. DC or Gary, Indiana. 

Again, that is far from militarization, it looks more like a high risk operation of some sort to me.

Claiming "We are the public" only goes so far.  They still have to enforce the law, or you'll scream about that.  They have a right to protect themselves when enforcing the law in dangerous situations, otherwise you're going to have situations where police simply won't enforce anything in dangerous parts of town, or in dangerous situations.  Claiming that SWAT operations prove that police have gone to full military is a poor comparison at the very best.  Like AFO said, if police start showing up in cougars or humvees to take a disturbing the peace complaint or are running radar picket, or even just patrolling in those things, then I'll say you have an argument.  But the fact is that those guys likely went back to the station after that, changed uniforms, climbed into a Crown Vic, and went on regular patrol, unless they had another high risk to deal with.

Maverick

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2014, 02:57:36 AM »

Seriously, some of you have gone off, or are going off, the deep end.

Ad hominem.

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You don't give enough back story to judge this situation.  You can't verify if the officer in the humvee can tell what is going on in that room, you can't tell me what that neighborhood is like, for all I know it could be Leave it to Beaver style, or it could be a meth den with several houses involved.  For all I know, that is either S.E. DC or Gary, Indiana.

Boston after the bombings. These images are rather famous across the internet.

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Again, that is far from militarization, it looks more like a high risk operation of some sort to me.

mil·i·tar·y

1. of, relating to, or characteristic of soldiers or armed forces.

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Claiming "We are the public" only goes so far.

No, it doesn't. It is an inalienable truth of our existence as citizens of this nation.

Using the public as an example or excuse to warrant abuses of power is fallacious and incredibly nefarious.

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They still have to enforce the law, or you'll scream about that.

This is an appeal to authority. Many disagree on which laws are to be enforced, and which laws are being created.

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They have a right to protect themselves

Including citizens whom have been beaten or died from brutality cases?

So do we.

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when enforcing the law in dangerous situations, otherwise you're going to have situations where police simply won't enforce anything in dangerous parts of town, or in dangerous situations.

Like what's currently happening in Detroit?

Slippery slope, false cause and a black-or-white argument.

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Claiming that SWAT operations prove that police have gone to full military is a poor comparison at the very best.

mil·i·tar·y

1. of, relating to, or characteristic of soldiers or armed forces.

 
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Like AFO said, if police start showing up in cougars or humvees to take a disturbing the peace complaint or are running radar picket, or even just patrolling in those things, then I'll say you have an argument.


(Translation: it's not true unless the most extreme case applies)

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But the fact is that those guys likely went back to the station after that, changed uniforms, climbed into a Crown Vic, and went on regular patrol, unless they had another high risk to deal with.

They kept an entire city locked down until they found a couple of punks who killed a few people.

In retrospect, Flint, Michigan had 66 homicides in 2012. Where were the troops in military vehicles patrolling the streets and looking for those terrorists?


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AirForceOne

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2014, 11:13:37 AM »
So basically you want law enforcement to ride bicycles and hand out ice cream cones to meth heads?  Or would that piss you off too? 

At this stage, law enforcement public opinion is FUCKED or FUCKED.  It doesn't matter what somebody in a badge does, we're all a bunch of baby murdering Obama worshiping bringers of his new world order where the citizens have no rights and a police state rules the land.  How do you propose law enforcement address bombs going off at a huge event full of civilians? 

"The suspects are at large, fleeing on foot!" 

"Oh no, they went into a neighborhood.  Better just let them go."  Then you know happens next?  A mad bomber rarely strikes once, then you'll bitch about why the police didn't hunt them down.  Sometimes a show of force is far more effective than a use of force.

sure there are bad cops with badges, just like there's mechanics who will rig your car for more repairs, EMTs that let people die, fast food employees that will spit in your food, corporate CEOs who have no problem stealing a pension for fat bonus, politicians who campaign for personal appeal and gain (they're still building Abhrams battle tanks because...?) I could go on forever.  There's bad seeds in every career in the world.  Why aren't you ranting against restaurant works who don't wash their hands? 

And on the gun issue, PEOPLE in general are FUCKING CRAZY and unpredictable.  Ever since the 7th SFG set up shop in northwest Florida, those psychos have been beating women and children, raping and murdering, running stolen guns, and stealing bombs for personal stockpiles.  And these guys are the Army's top level.  Psychopaths abound.  When I gear up and hit the road to patrol I plan to get my ass home to bed every day.  If I have to blow somebody's head off to do that, I will.  I'm not going to die because you don't feel a law is just or unfair. 

Or should we just let the public be the public, and suspend law enforcement all together?  People will police themselves, right wicho?

Meatywand

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2014, 11:37:06 AM »
I have no problems with patrol officers being issued shotguns and ARs along with their side arm and tazer and OC Spray and baton. I have no problem with proper escalation of force procedures. That's GOOD stuff for police to have because of things like the aforementioned North Hollywood Shoot Out. Also, body armor...go wild with it, because like you said, people are crazy. I just become concerned when police and (more often than not) government agencies gear up to levels like that of our troops fighting over seas. There's not really much of a reason for our local Sheriff's department to have Armor'ed vehicles like they do...or the LMGs and 50 cal rifles they possess that they proudly had on display at the last gun show along with videos of their Gear Queer SWAT teams doing practice "raids" on shoot houses. It just seemed I dunno, overly threatening to me..like...don't make us mad or THIS WILL HAPPEN TO YOU!!!!
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Onyx Dragon

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2014, 02:01:51 PM »
I have no problems with patrol officers being issued shotguns and ARs along with their side arm and tazer and OC Spray and baton. I have no problem with proper escalation of force procedures. That's GOOD stuff for police to have because of things like the aforementioned North Hollywood Shoot Out. Also, body armor...go wild with it, because like you said, people are crazy. I just become concerned when police and (more often than not) government agencies gear up to levels like that of our troops fighting over seas. There's not really much of a reason for our local Sheriff's department to have Armor'ed vehicles like they do...or the LMGs and 50 cal rifles they possess that they proudly had on display at the last gun show along with videos of their Gear Queer SWAT teams doing practice "raids" on shoot houses. It just seemed I dunno, overly threatening to me..like...don't make us mad or THIS WILL HAPPEN TO YOU!!!!

Keep in mind that not all agencies are honest and straight forward.  Some of them are corrupt as hell.  The county my dad lives in, his Sheriff's department wasn't giving deputies bullet proof vests.  They have no drug team, and yet, they are one of the biggest counties for meth manufacturing in the country.  The current sheriff once had his sidearm taken from him and was chased around his police cruiser, used to sleep in his cruiser at night, and had sex with a dispatcher in his cruiser.  That department is very much like you are saying, but the actual professional departments aren't like that.  What I see happening all to often is that people group the good departments in with the bad.

Meatywand

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2014, 02:12:02 PM »
Its not so much that, as it is that certain police departments seem to have taken a valid, needed thing for arresting dangerous criminals, serving dangerous warrants etc such as SWAT and turned it into their own private paramilitary unit. That bothers me. There used to be a clear line between Military and Police, but its getting increasingly blurred. I think each and every single officer on the street needs at minimum a Kevlar vest, preferably one of the "stab proof" variety. Shotguns and Rifles in the Patrol unit, why not, they may come in handy, especially the shotgun for less lethal rounds. But when dudes start gearing up like something out of a Call of Duty game with ski masks and gear vests and all that crap, it crosses a line that makes most citizens a bit frightened.
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Onyx Dragon

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2014, 02:26:32 PM »
Boston after the bombings. These images are rather famous across the internet.

Oh...well then, I don't know WHAT they were thinking.  That wasn't dangerous at all.

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mil·i·tar·y

1. of, relating to, or characteristic of soldiers or armed forces.

Thanks.  Glad you found dictionary.com.  Now if you're suggesting we use the military in those situations, that's an even WORSE idea.

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No, it doesn't. It is an inalienable truth of our existence as citizens of this nation.

Using the public as an example or excuse to warrant abuses of power is fallacious and incredibly nefarious.

At the same time, using the public as an excuse to strip all power from the government when the people are quite often WRONG as well is dangerous and shows a serious lack of intelligence and foresight.  You used the Boston bombings as an example.  That was a dangerous situation that is an undeniable fact.  You wanted the police to walk around with batons and whistles looking for them.  Look at the reality of the situation you used as an example before you make statements of abuse of power.

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This is an appeal to authority. Many disagree on which laws are to be enforced, and which laws are being created.

Unfortunately what many people, yourself included, seem to be missing is that the police do not get to chose which laws to enforce, and which to create.  If the public has a problem with that, then they need to have a talk with their representatives in congress, state congress, governor's office, white house, etc.  Police enforce the laws, that is their job.  Getting mad at them for enforcing a law that is on the books is silly.  If you're unhappy with the law, the law enforcement people are the wrong ones to go to.  They are called law enforcement for a reason.  Otherwise they would be called Law Legislation and Enforcement.

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Including citizens whom have been beaten or died from brutality cases?

So do we.

And yet ANOTHER "this has happened a couple times so all police do it" statement.  The ratio of that happening to ALL police involvement with the public is low.  Trying to use that as an argument is weak.

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Like what's currently happening in Detroit?

Slippery slope, false cause and a black-or-white argument.

It's a slippery slope, false cause, or black or white argument...WHEN IT'S HAPPENING AND YOU EVEN GAVE AN EXAMPLE?  :lol:  It happened in Gary, Indiana as well.  Let's not also forget about Chicago, Illinois and parts of Los Angeles.  Oh, what about the total failure of the police during katrina?  Brown County, Indiana.  A sheriff's deputy is called out to a farm for a prowler.  The deputy arrives, *45* minutes after the call.  The lady says "I saw him go in my shed" and points to the shed.  The deputy shines his car's flood light back there and says "Well, I don't see anyone.  Call us if you see him come back."  Without getting out of the car.  The lady calls her neighbor who comes over with a firearm, finds someone trespassing, and chases him off.  It happens, and has happened.  It is nothing new.  Ignoring the facts does not mean you are correct, and trying to push it off as, in this case, a slippery slope, false cause, or a black and white argument is a joke.  Especially since these situations have already occurred.

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mil·i·tar·y

1. of, relating to, or characteristic of soldiers or armed forces.

 This, right here, is a great statement.  Because what it proves is that you have little to no idea of what you are talking about in this situation.  You would rather see the military operating inside the US to bring in criminals, or you want the police to go in with just the bullet proof vests they wear plus a hand gun.

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(Translation: it's not true unless the most extreme case applies)

Which is funny, because you're doing the same thing.  The difference here is you're willing to sacrifice lives unless the worst thing happens (and even then, based off of other comments you've made, I doubt you'd care lives were lost unless they were lives of your friends or family, but I question even that).  I, however, am going with a "prepare for the worst but hope for the best" way of doing things in which lives will be saved. 

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They kept an entire city locked down until they found a couple of punks who killed a few people.

Do you realize the gravity of that situation?  Apparently not.  For all anyone knew, they had more of these ready to go and were going to use them.  I'll say it for you:(Translation: it's not true unless the most extreme case applies).  Unfortunately, that case had already applied.  I'm also pretty sure the families of "those few people" plus all the seriously wounded people, some of whom lost limbs, would also like to talk to you about that statement.

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In retrospect, Flint, Michigan had 66 homicides in 2012. Where were the troops in military vehicles patrolling the streets and looking for those terrorists?

Did they happen all at once?  Because I don't recall 66 deaths in one day in Flint, Michigan.  I don't recall anyone using home made bombs in Flint, Michigan, or anything of that nature.  But if you have knowledge that I don't about terrorists operating in Flint in which they killed a lot of people in 1 simple act, then please share it.  I am sure we would all like to know about that!
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 02:27:16 PM by Onyx Dragon »

Flea

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2014, 04:57:48 PM »
Some of you fuckers are channeling your hatred/loathing of the federal government and its alphabet agencies on to your local police agencies.  You forget that should those agencies turn against US (because we are citizens, too), that WE will be the ones protecting your happy asses.  See NY Sheriffs' offices that refuse to enforce SAFE Act, states that have enacted laws barring federal agents from enforcing 2A infringements, etc. During the Cliven Bundy/BLM standoff, it was the local sheriff that first negotiated a stand-down.  Also, I didn't see any local agencies that were involved in the Waco Siege.  Oh, and those pictures where police are searching for the Boston bombers?  Well, the pair detonated bombs in downtown Boston, shot and killed an MIT police officer "for his gun," carjacked a vehicle almost on a whim, and were planning on heading to NYC to bomb Times Square.  Those pictures posted were after the firefight with police in which Tamerlan was killed.  The pair allegedly exchanged 2-300 rounds with police, while Dzhokhar escaped.  The door-to-door search with the Humvee was after that.  Oh, and that search also found 7 IED's in the area... so...

As far as militarization of the police force with regards to tactics, etc., criminal gangs are sending members into the armed forces specifically for combat training.  You have inner-city gang members that have been trained in the latest CQB tactics. Almost all nationally recognized criminal street gangs have been documented in the military.  How else would you suggest police engage/combat someone who is trained to such a degree?

With regards to body armor/tac vests/gear, most of that kind of gear looks military because it is military.  The makers of such products cater to the military, while police are an afterthought.  If I'm going to an active-shooter situation, I want all the military gear, because most of it is designed to win a firefight.

People want police to be like in Mayberry, but the fact is that Andy Griffith was a terrible Sheriff.

AirForceOne

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2014, 05:05:13 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At2cRfOvYV8


This is what modern law enforcement is.  Like Flea said, LEOs are also citizens too. 

Meatywand

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2014, 08:42:44 PM »
Honestly, the lock down and search of Boston was one the scariest things I've ever seen in my life. Federal Agents should have been conducting that, not local PD with military gear, glassing civilians that are looking outside since ya know THEY'RE LOCKED DOWN...I don't know where in the constitution that kind of stuff is allowed. And by the same token, its pretty shitty that Feds left the locals to do it...because they have purpose trained teams of that sort of shit.

Flea, I see no issue with using the best armor on the market and I already said as much. But there's really no reason for a Sheriff's Department in Bossier Parish to be rolling in an armored vehicles with .50 cals and LMGS at the ready while all Gear Queer'ed out like a 14 year old CoD Player's wet dream. We don't have an issue with tons of violent crime, we aren't gang infested. Those are the little things that make me take pause and wonder whats going on here? Sure in bigger cities with gang issues, you have to scale things up....but where does it end? Its just...frightening to see that shit on a local level.

Also, both sides of the Cliven Bundy shit were retarded, dudes taking up sniping positions on Federal Agents is fucking retarded, but by the same token the BLM came in pretty heavy handed initially.
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Onyx Dragon

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2014, 09:50:18 PM »
Meaty, what federal law enforcement agency would have the size to do that?  There aren't enough FBI agents in that area to do that.  The local Boston PD was already borrowing equipment from the military (notice the Military Police stenciled on the side of the Humvee?).  I'm pretty sure Boston PD wasn't alone in this and that it required state and other nearby PDs, as well as whatever FBI agents they could get for help, too.  The only group big enough to do that by themselves is the military or national guard.  Imagine the uproar had the military come in and declared martial law and then shot someone.

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2014, 10:09:18 PM »
Meaty it takes a while to mobilize the logistics of an operation of that magnitude.  Surely you don't think the FBI has a series of tactical squads set in warehouses every few miles in lying in wait.  It looks scary as hell, I wouldn't try to say it's not.  But take into account the gravity of that situation, you basically had a real life GTA situation, and the results was a five star wanted level.  :lol:

Onyx it's a challenge to bring military assets together for an operation like this.  The Posse Comitatus Act does not allow for it.  The National Guard and now Reserve can be deployed for domestic events, but their primary function would likely be containment and security.  The suspect pursuit and so forth would still fall to law enforcement.

Maverick

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2014, 11:07:02 PM »
Oh...well then, I don't know WHAT they were thinking.  That wasn't dangerous at all.

Dangerous to whom, exactly?

Compared to what is happening in the rest of the world, I'd call it an isolated incident.

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Thanks.  Glad you found dictionary.com.  Now if you're suggesting we use the military in those situations, that's an even WORSE idea.

The definition of military is the same there as it is in the Oxford dictionary, and it doesn't distract from the core principle of the argument.

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At the same time, using the public as an excuse to strip all power from the government when the people are quite often WRONG as well is dangerous and shows a serious lack of intelligence and foresight.

Ad hominem, straw man argument and you're anticipating my rebuttal by framing it for me. Essentially, you have pointed out an argument I did not make so that I might need to defend it. I will not.

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You used the Boston bombings as an example.  That was a dangerous situation that is an undeniable fact. You wanted the police to walk around with batons and whistles looking for them. Look at the reality of the situation you used as an example before you make statements of abuse of power.

Straw man and exaggeration. If you want me to respond, please don't construct such elementary uses of persuasive language.

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Unfortunately what many people, yourself included, seem to be missing is that the police do not get to chose which laws to enforce, and which to create. 

They choose policy on how to enforce the laws and create policy to govern the populous.

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If the public has a problem with that, then they need to have a talk with their representatives in congress, state congress, governor's office, white house, etc.

If you can find a way to amend the penal code, I will use it. I challenge you to find a direct method of changing policy within agencies that doesn't involve finding an honest politician.

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Police enforce the laws, that is their job.




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Getting mad at them for enforcing a law that is on the books is silly. If you're unhappy with the law, the law enforcement people are the wrong ones to go to.  They are called law enforcement for a reason.  Otherwise they would be called Law Legislation and Enforcement.

Being arrested for annoying a police officer, insulting his bravado or hurting his feelings and being charged with resisting arrest is more silly.

Having the officer go back to work without any recourse is even more silly.

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And yet ANOTHER "this has happened a couple times so all police do it" statement.  The ratio of that happening to ALL police involvement with the public is low.  Trying to use that as an argument is weak.


What is the occupy movement? The police could have kept their distance and let the wildling liberals have their day, but the call came in to shut it down with force.

Just doing their job.

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It's a slippery slope, false cause, or black or white argument...WHEN IT'S HAPPENING AND YOU EVEN GAVE AN EXAMPLE?


We are discussing militarization.

But, let me explain. Slippery slope is, "If they dont have these thigns, its going to get worse!", false cause is "Since they don't have the gear, it explains the high murder rate." and black-or-white is, "If they don't get the gear, we will never be okay."

They have the gear. They have the armor. Why are those areas in such disarray?

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:lol:  It happened in Gary, Indiana as well.  Let's not also forget about Chicago, Illinois and parts of Los Angeles.  Oh, what about the total failure of the police during katrina?  Brown County, Indiana.  A sheriff's deputy is called out to a farm for a prowler.  The deputy arrives, *45* minutes after the call.  The lady says "I saw him go in my shed" and points to the shed.  The deputy shines his car's flood light back there and says "Well, I don't see anyone.  Call us if you see him come back."  Without getting out of the car.  The lady calls her neighbor who comes over with a firearm, finds someone trespassing, and chases him off.  It happens, and has happened.  It is nothing new. 

Natural disasters and the dissolution of governing authority only strengthens the argument of personal defense.

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Ignoring the facts does not mean you are correct, and trying to push it off as, in this case, a slippery slope, false cause, or a black and white argument is a joke.  Especially since these situations have already occurred.

Slippery slope is, "If they dont have these thigns, its going to get worse!", false cause is "Since they don't have the gear, it explains the high murder rate!", and black-or-white is, "If they don't get the gear, we will never be okay."

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This, right here, is a great statement.  Because what it proves is that you have little to no idea of what you are talking about in this situation.


Ad hominem.

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You would rather see the military operating inside the US to bring in criminals, or you want the police to go in with just the bullet proof vests they wear plu s a hand gun.

Straw man exaggeration.  You're again saying it isn't true unless the most extreme case applies.

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Which is funny, because you're doing the same thing. The difference here is you're willing to sacrifice lives unless the worst thing happens (and even then, based off of other comments you've made, I doubt you'd care lives were lost unless they were lives of your friends or family, but I question even that).  I, however, am going with a "prepare for the worst but hope for the best" way of doing things in which lives will be saved. 

strawman
You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.

By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.

Example: After Will said that we should put more money into health and education, Warren responded by saying that he was surprised that Will hates our country so much that he wants to leave it defenseless by cutting military spending.


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Do you realize the gravity of that situation?

Yes.

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Apparently not. For all anyone knew, they had more of these ready to go and were going to use them. For all anyone knew, they had more of these ready to go and were going to use them.  I'll say it for you:(Translation: it's not true unless the most extreme case applies).  Unfortunately, that case had already applied.  I'm also pretty sure the families of "those few people" plus all the seriously wounded people, some of whom lost limbs, would also like to talk to you about that statement.

An appeal to emotion won't help your position.

Ordering an entire city into marshal law and systematically breaking into homes set a new precedent where enforcement officials can call anyone an enemy combatant and throw local laws right out of the window, so to speak.

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Did they happen all at once?  Because I don't recall 66 deaths in one day in Flint, Michigan.  I don't recall anyone using home made bombs in Flint, Michigan, or anything of that nature. But if you have knowledge that I don't about terrorists operating in Flint in which they killed a lot of people in 1 simple act, then please share it. I am sure we would all like to know about that!

So it isn't terrorism when people terrorize neighborhoods by killing citizens using high powered weaponry?

Wait, are you saying that because they are gang related murders, they can't be terrorists? Or, since they don't have a nefarious feeling toward the US government while killing people, it doesn't mean we should try to root them all out?

For all we know, they could be very well prepared to use their weapons to kill more people!


I miss Cody. The world is a cruel place.

Maverick

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2014, 11:16:25 PM »
Some of you fuckers are channeling your hatred/loathing of the federal government and its alphabet agencies on to your local police agencies.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EduzwLhndIM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EduzwLhndIM</a>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EduzwLhndIM

Here are some PDs asking a man to stop camping in the local hills of Arizona.


I miss Cody. The world is a cruel place.

Maverick

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Re: The crazies are back.
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2014, 11:34:09 PM »
So basically you want law enforcement to ride bicycles and hand out ice cream cones to meth heads?  Or would that piss you off too?

Strawman.
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At this stage, law enforcement public opinion is FUCKED or FUCKED.


Law enforcement's fault. Symbols of authority will always have detractors, but common skepticism and mistrust of law enforcement has been heavily accelerated by their own actions.

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It doesn't matter what somebody in a badge does, we're all a bunch of baby murdering Obama worshiping bringers of his new world order where the citizens have no rights and a police state rules the land.  How do you propose law enforcement address bombs going off at a huge event full of civilians?

Investigate and chase down the perpetrators using standard protocol.

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"The suspects are at large, fleeing on foot!" 

"Oh no, they went into a neighborhood.  Better just let them go."  Then you know happens next?  A mad bomber rarely strikes once, then you'll bitch about why the police didn't hunt them down.  Sometimes a show of force is far more effective than a use of force.

Mad bombers are also very rare, but very common in the middle east depending on which flag they fight under.

A mad bomber terrorist in Syria is called a freedom fighter right now because we think Al Assad is a big, stinky meanie head.

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sure there are bad cops with badges, just like there's mechanics who will rig your car for more repairs, EMTs that let people die, fast food employees that will spit in your food, corporate CEOs who have no problem stealing a pension for fat bonus, politicians who campaign for personal appeal and gain (they're still building Abhrams battle tanks because...?) I could go on forever.  There's bad seeds in every career in the world.  Why aren't you ranting against restaurant works who don't wash their hands

Every single person you listed after cops are not authorized to use lethal force. There is also the impenetrable "thin blue line" which makes policing the police next to impossible.

One bad apple is enough to re-evaluate the entire system until there are less to no bad cops left.

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And on the gun issue, PEOPLE in general are FUCKING CRAZY and unpredictable.  Ever since the 7th SFG set up shop in northwest Florida, those psychos have been beating women and children, raping and murdering, running stolen guns, and stealing bombs for personal stockpiles.  And these guys are the Army's top level.  Psychopaths abound.  When I gear up and hit the road to patrol I plan to get my ass home to bed every day.  If I have to blow somebody's head off to do that, I will.  I'm not going to die because you don't feel a law is just or unfair. 

BRB, I'm going on a killing spree because I'm wacky and unpredictable.

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Or should we just let the public be the public, and suspend law enforcement all together?  People will police themselves, right wicho?

Strawman and exaggeration.

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People will police themselves, right wicho?

LEOs are not responsible for the safety of the public.

Law enforcement can stand to be completely reevaluated.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 11:48:31 PM by wicho »


I miss Cody. The world is a cruel place.