Author Topic: Obamacare Wins.  (Read 13167 times)

Daemon

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2012, 02:36:38 AM »
While I don't blame Obama for this stuff, I do blame the government as a whole.

Attack on American rights, Patriot Act, NDAA 2012, SOPA, PIPA, CISPA. Do I need to continue?

Onyx Dragon

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2012, 02:50:51 AM »
I wanted to address this seperately - first, I'd like to see you actually provide some sort of list of the rights that the Obama administration has been taking away from you. The only one you've addressed so far is your "right" to not buy insurance. As noted by Justice Roberts in his defense of the Affordable Care Act you still have that right; you can choose to not buy insurance all day long. You will simply pay an approx $95/year tax. You also have the right to not buy a house, but you will pay higher taxes since you can't deduct the interest from your income tax liability. A tax on something is not a direct infringement on your right to do said thing.

Yeah..that's a fine.  Call it a "tax" all you want, but it's a fine.  A tax is to pay for services, in no way are they providing me a service if I DON'T buy insurance.  So they are taxing me for exercising my right to NOT do something.  As for addressing only my right to not buy insurance, look at the title of the thread.  Even if that was the only thing, that's enough.  This administration made promises it has flat out backtracked on (ie: making sure they are transparent...then hiding important fast and furious documents).  Then there was his attempt to pass a law (and it's late, I can't remember if it passed) that would make it so that if you were suspected of helping terrorists, the government could arrest and hold you indefinitely.  Finally, the four year extension of the Patriot Act.

Quote
Second, as an aside - do you also apply your statement to the actual attack on women's rights to health care that the Republican party is undertaking? Or are you going to be hypocritical?

Hypocritical would be demanding something, such as free birth control, while telling the government it can't be involved in something...such as abortion.  Can't tell the government to give you something for the bedroom while simultaneously telling the government to stay OUT of the bedroom.

By the way, these aren't RIGHTS.  Free or cheap health care isn't a RIGHT.  That's an entitlement point of view.  Yes, the health care industry IS making a ton of money.  Yes, they CAN make a lot of money while charging less, just like the oil companies and pharmaceutical companies.  For that, I say the government cap the amount they are allowed to make (15% per person or whatever) instead of going about it in the way they are.  Let's look at the government's track record thus far.

1. Provide a good education: Fail
2. Make sure the roads are in good working order: Fail
3. Make sure the police and firemen are adequately trained and supplied: Fail
4. Provide safety and security: D
5. Ensure that our businesses and economy survive and thrive: Fail
6. Provide the social security retirement program they promised: Failing

So yeah, let's let them interfere in health care.  More so since this isn't, as noted by Daemon, the Obama Health Care plan.  It's a congress plan...spearheaded by Pelosi at the time.  Obama's plan was good.  This one isn't. 

If any of this comes across as sarcastic or mean I didn't mean for it to.  It's late, I'm frustrated with the government, I'm tired, and haven't had a good sleep in a week, so I apologize if it seems like I was being a dick at all in this post.

s-10 maniac

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2012, 04:21:59 AM »
This is the voice of stupid fuck/complete tards everywhere.   Seriously, I have to pay for your ass because you are, and always have been, a stupid fuck.  Because your bullshit, not planning ahead ass gets sick, my premiums have to go up each year.  Seriously, fuck you for being dumb and costing me money.

Onyx, ten years later, your still the self righteous voice of ignorant people everywhere that fuck it up for the rest of the world.  Iíll give you this though; youíve always been too dumb to be ashamed of anything you have ever said here.   That has to be comforting.

Pot calling kettle black.

One who doesn't realize the entire system is rigged against us is the real stupid fuck/complete tard.

MiniVanMan

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2012, 09:02:24 AM »
Republican idea. Mitt Romney did it in Massachusetts. Suddenly it's a bad idea because of Obama. :-\

Pretty much end of story.

*looks around the room*

Uh... did uh... did anyone even mention Romney? I really don't think so, in which case it seems like you've jumped the gun just a bit at trying to put this debate to bed.

I wouldn't support Romney if he did it and I don't support Obama. What Romney did in his own State is their business - but the moment a single piece of legislation affects the entire country, then it becomes everyone else's concern as well.

Pot calling kettle black.

One who doesn't realize the entire system is rigged against us is the real stupid fuck/complete tard.

I'm gonna borrow one of your tinfoil hats for a minute..

I really feel like all of this legislation that funnels nearly every major aspect of our lives through the Government is all a big ploy to keep us reliant on the government.

This is kind of a weird comparison... but it's like we're being doped up by a king pin so we'll continue to go out and whore ourselves for a fix.

You know, they take these women, get them hooked on some hardcore shit, then make them sell their bodies and bring in the cash because they provide the women a supply of that hardcore shit.

I know that's kind of a weird parallel, but think about it... Government starts meddling in things like our Health Insurance and other things that have always been private business in the past, and next thing you know, we're DEPENDENT on them to provide the things we need. We WILL vote for the guy who promises to give us a fix. We WILL pay higher taxes if it means we get that fix we need.

We are being forced into addiction to government control - they're going to take over so much that we will forget how to operate without them.

If that sounds crazy, just look at the trend over the past 12 years - maybe longer. One thing after another has been about giving the Government control over aspects of our lives that have been handling in the private sector since the beginning of time - all because the economy is shit, which is really the fault of... guess who... THE GOVERNMENT.

« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 09:02:55 AM by 00XJ »

s-10 maniac

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2012, 04:17:36 PM »
You would be correct in your assumptions.  Welfare, foodstamps, social security, public education, healthcare, etc... all designed to create a need for government.  The more the dumb masses rely on government, the less likely they are to turn on government.  Cradle to grave, remain subservient to government yada yada.

Those that doubt the evils of government, only need to read a history book.

Daemon

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2012, 08:14:08 PM »
I've said it before, I'll say it again. You two are supposedly espousing problems, what are your solutions? I'm willing to bet your solutions return us to the 1800s, or if S-10 got his way, we would all be hunter gatherer nomadic tribes.

Onyx Dragon

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2012, 08:39:40 PM »
I've said it before, I'll say it again. You two are supposedly espousing problems, what are your solutions? I'm willing to bet your solutions return us to the 1800s, or if S-10 got his way, we would all be hunter gatherer nomadic tribes.
It's hard to come up with a solution when the government keeps so much secret so you can't figure out what really needs fixed.  I'd start with not allowing businesses to donate money to a political campaign at all.  I'd limit all contributions tied to any person to $100 total.  So you can't go around it and donate through a charity either.

s-10 maniac

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2012, 10:57:03 PM »
I've said it before, I'll say it again. You two are supposedly espousing problems, what are your solutions? I'm willing to bet your solutions return us to the 1800s, or if S-10 got his way, we would all be hunter gatherer nomadic tribes.

Keeping corporations out of politics and government out of our lives is a hell of a start.

JD

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2012, 10:22:48 AM »

Quote from: meatywand
Mr. Bagged Milk Maaaaahzda. :lol:

Sponty

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Daemon

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2012, 01:20:40 PM »
Considering the person that wrote that is a member of the Discovery Institute, a very dishonest think tank, you should strike it from record and find a more reputable source

Nava

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2012, 02:53:21 PM »
Considering the person that wrote that is a member of the Discovery Institute, a very dishonest think tank, you should strike it from record and find a more reputable source


Why do that when we can just find an article to back up our already-existing ideas of various subjects to make ourselves feel more right?

MadFairlane

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2012, 07:10:56 AM »
Be like us... Have free health care, then get taxed if you don't have private health care...

Then get sick, and have to go to Emergency, go private (because thats what I pay $400/month for), still get billed for tests, xrays etc...

Get nothing back from Private health insurer, get fucking squat back from the government.

End up out of pocket to the tune of $2k

Still get slugged $400 next month for private health insurance.

Fuckthisshit.jpg

The aussie system isn't all that good either lol


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Onyx Dragon

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2012, 08:54:59 AM »
Be like us... Have free health care, then get taxed if you don't have private health care...

Then get sick, and have to go to Emergency, go private (because thats what I pay $400/month for), still get billed for tests, xrays etc...

Get nothing back from Private health insurer, get fucking squat back from the government.

End up out of pocket to the tune of $2k

Still get slugged $400 next month for private health insurance.

Fuckthisshit.jpg

The aussie system isn't all that good either lol

With my ins company, the emergency room/hospital bills them directly.

orangeLJ

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2012, 02:55:06 AM »
different system here Onyx,

Basically if you are on "welfare" (single parents, low wage earners, elderly, "disabled", most forms of pensions, aboriginal etc etc) you get access to cost free medical.

The rest of us have to pay for Private Health insurance with varying levels of cover (some cover everything from chiro to pregnancy related, others cover selective things, some only cover a smaller percentage etc etc)

You can still go to a public hospital for free, be treated and operated on for free etc, but your regular doctors visits (GP) cost you a "gap" between what the govt pays and what they charge. You can then go and claim a percentage of that "gap" back from your private health insurer.

Or you can go to a private hospital, and depending on the level of cover you have, the smaller the cost to you personally. etc etc.

Its fucking complicated, and if you dont have private health care you get slugged with the "medicare levy" at tax time which realistically is the govt charging for the use of the public system if you can afford not to.

IF the private health care actually covered everything, it would be an excellent system. But unfortunately, like MadFairlane said, it doesnt....

Daemon

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2012, 03:11:26 AM »
And therein lies the problem.

Everyone thinks that medical insurance should be an all or nothing situation. Either the government covers it all, or they cover none.

I've always been a fan of a nationwide Medicare plan that you backed up with private ins. A little of both. If I had the time I would give more details, but you're smart people that don't need to be lead like sheep.

Onyx Dragon

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2012, 03:16:00 AM »
different system here Onyx,

Basically if you are on "welfare" (single parents, low wage earners, elderly, "disabled", most forms of pensions, aboriginal etc etc) you get access to cost free medical.

The rest of us have to pay for Private Health insurance with varying levels of cover (some cover everything from chiro to pregnancy related, others cover selective things, some only cover a smaller percentage etc etc)

You can still go to a public hospital for free, be treated and operated on for free etc, but your regular doctors visits (GP) cost you a "gap" between what the govt pays and what they charge. You can then go and claim a percentage of that "gap" back from your private health insurer.

Or you can go to a private hospital, and depending on the level of cover you have, the smaller the cost to you personally. etc etc.

Its fucking complicated, and if you dont have private health care you get slugged with the "medicare levy" at tax time which realistically is the govt charging for the use of the public system if you can afford not to.

IF the private health care actually covered everything, it would be an excellent system. But unfortunately, like MadFairlane said, it doesnt....

Medical insurance is one of the few things I think the government should be involved in, just not heavily.  I think they should limit the % of profit medical insurance/drug companies can make off of their drugs/medical procedures/emergencies.  Medical drugs/insurance shouldn't be something that is considered private industry IMO as it could involves matters of life and death.

MiniVanMan

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2012, 08:21:13 AM »
Maybe it wouldn't hurt to look into why it costs over $400 to simply enter the Emergency waiting room and fill out a form. Or why an ace wrap costs $100 if supplied by the hospital, but $5 at Rite Aid.

Maybe THAT'S where the government could step in.

Onyx Dragon

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2012, 08:58:28 AM »
Maybe it wouldn't hurt to look into why it costs over $400 to simply enter the Emergency waiting room and fill out a form. Or why an ace wrap costs $100 if supplied by the hospital, but $5 at Rite Aid.

Maybe THAT'S where the government could step in.

That's what I'm getting at.  They don't need to make a such a profit that it kills the citizens.

Rammstein4Ever

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2012, 09:00:34 AM »
Maybe it wouldn't hurt to look into why it costs over $400 to simply enter the Emergency waiting room and fill out a form. Or why an ace wrap costs $100 if supplied by the hospital, but $5 at Rite Aid.

Maybe THAT'S where the government could step in.

From what I understand much of the reason why people are being charged $500 for aspirin, etc is that their are people that use the emergency room that don't have insurance and they don't ever end up paying, and so they pass the buck onto patients that have insurance in the form of gross overcharges, because the insurance will cover it.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 09:01:02 AM by Rammstein4Ever »

MiniVanMan

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2012, 11:29:17 AM »
I stabbed myself in the arm with a 60 year old rusty nail while tearing apart an old work bench in my parents basement. It had been at least 10 years since my last tetanus shot.

So, went to the local Urgent Care. 10 minutes, $35 and a sore arm later I was good to go.

I have a feeling that if I'd gone to the Emergency room and been treated there, I'd be out a good $800 or more.

Daemon

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2012, 12:51:09 PM »
No doubt about it Nick. This is where the discussion can easily lead to an illegal immigrant discussion because this is what they do, but they aren't even close to being alone. The 18-30 yo group are your largest contributors to this problem. Hey, I'm young and healthy, no need to waste money on health insurance OH SHIT BROKE MAH LEG!. Or even worse, damn got the flu, better go to the hospital!.

I would like to see the government handle the small stuff. Insurance that takes care of doctors visits, minor emergency care, preventatitve care, etc. Then have private insurance freed up for the big ticket items. The cancers, surgeries, etc.

I think that is the best option. If we can get basic medical care for everyone, then they wont be using the ER for lame shit.

Sounds good in theory, but it's not a perfect answer. I see the flaws, but I'm always open to better solutions.

orangeLJ

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2012, 08:16:30 PM »
I think the other issue that you guys have (we have something similar) is the cost of insurance for medial practitioners.

The amount of qualifications that you now have to obtain before being able to administer something as simple as oral pain relief is insane.

Its all come about due to the rise in litigation when something goes wrong. Give a pregnant female in the last trimester the wrong type of pain releief. Codeine and Ibuprofen can cause miscarriage in mothers in the first or last trimester, same as the growing number of folks who are severley allergic to paracetamol.

In days gone by, if you had a nad reaction to something, you went back to the doctor and worked through it (obviously the pregnancy one is a bit of an exemption, the doc should know that) but these days, you sue their ass off because it inconvenienced you...

Public Liability insurance is an absolute plague on society and is a MASSIVE part of the price increases in EVERYTHING these days.

Daemon

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2012, 09:54:38 PM »
That's true as well.

Our physicians are incentivized to run a bill up.

1. They have to test for every single possibility, no matter how remote, for fear of a misdiagnosis and subsequent malpractice lawsuit.

2. When people go to the doctor, most want to hear something is wrong with them. I know this sounds strange, but people don't go to the doctor unless they feel something is wrong, and to be told nothing is wrong is almost an insult to so many people. They will go to another doctor to get a diagnosis they want. Bad business for a doctor. So a doctor will run multiple tests even whem s/he knows it's not necessary.

We need to find a way to limit this. I would have no problem setting it up so that if you sue a doctor for malpractice, and s/he is found non guilty, then I think judges should decide if you should pay the legal fees of the doctor.

s-10 maniac

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2012, 12:46:05 AM »
Healthcare is expensive because the government IS involved.  Governments do NOT make anything more effecient or cheaper....unless its intended to be negative.