Author Topic: Obamacare Wins.  (Read 13001 times)

00XJ

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Obamacare Wins.
« on: June 28, 2012, 11:16:09 AM »
Thoughts?

While I'm definitely not against the concept of affordable health care for all... I am not OK with the idea of forcing us to either buy insurance, or pay a fine in the form of taxes. That is bullshit.

Gael

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2012, 11:36:43 AM »
My thoughts are that CNN and Fox News jumped the gun.



Gael

Aeroboost

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2012, 11:38:04 AM »
Thoughts?

While I'm definitely not against the concept of affordable health care for all... I am not OK with the idea of forcing us to either buy insurance, or pay a fine in the form of taxes. That is bullshit.
Welcome to Communist USA.

apparently,
it could still be repealed.

The court just decided it was constitutional uner the goverment's power to tax.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 11:42:48 AM by Aeroboost »
You cain't buy it that way...

Maverick

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2012, 04:45:19 PM »
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2009/09/obama-mandate-is-not-a-tax/
>Obama says it wont be a mandated wont be a tax

>Mandate survives as tax

Alright, Romney. Don't fuck this one up.


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TheBlackShed

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2012, 05:44:47 PM »
Well, a Republican Appointed justice was the swing vote for the yes. So there must be SOME good to it.
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Onyx Dragon

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2012, 06:04:19 PM »
Well, a Republican Appointed justice was the swing vote for the yes. So there must be SOME good to it.

nope.com

What happens if you can't even afford government insurance?  Are they STILL going to fine you?  This thing is so filled with failure it's not funny, and it shows how out of touch the government really is.

I especially like how President Obama is holding on to all the big ticket items to deal with until an election year.

TheBlackShed

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2012, 06:38:24 PM »
nope.com

What happens if you can't even afford government insurance?  Are they STILL going to fine you?  This thing is so filled with failure it's not funny, and it shows how out of touch the government really is.

I especially like how President Obama is holding on to all the big ticket items to deal with until an election year.

isn't it supposed to be tapered to your income level tho?

I support some of the idea of it, but not all of it.

You take someone with out insurance, they go to teh ER for something simple, and cost Medicare thousands of dollars, as where now they have insurance and can go see a family doctor for a co-pay. I belive that is how it is SUPPOSED to work, but we all know that isnt how it will.

But I DO disagree with the imposing of a fine if you dont have it.

I just think the whole damn political system is broken anyway and needs to be re-done.
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Onyx Dragon

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2012, 06:45:16 PM »
isn't it supposed to be tapered to your income level tho?

I support some of the idea of it, but not all of it.

You take someone with out insurance, they go to teh ER for something simple, and cost Medicare thousands of dollars, as where now they have insurance and can go see a family doctor for a co-pay. I belive that is how it is SUPPOSED to work, but we all know that isnt how it will.

But I DO disagree with the imposing of a fine if you dont have it.

I just think the whole damn political system is broken anyway and needs to be re-done.

Tapered to your income doesn't mean you'll be able to afford it.  I also don't believe for a SECOND that this isn't going to raise taxes.  If it doesn't raise taxes, then a program that is actually important, such as education, will pay for it.

Nava

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2012, 07:06:46 PM »
If you can't afford it, there is no fine. 

By 1/1/2014 there will be no such thing as "pre-existing conditions" on insurance.  The fee is for people who can afford insurance but don't get it, so that they can't just go get insurance whenever they are already sick and play the system.

Onyx Dragon

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2012, 07:33:34 PM »
If you can't afford it, there is no fine. 

By 1/1/2014 there will be no such thing as "pre-existing conditions" on insurance.  The fee is for people who can afford insurance but don't get it, so that they can't just go get insurance whenever they are already sick and play the system.

Yeah, like the system doesn't play us as well :lol:  It doesn't change the fact that forcing me to buy something I don't want/need shouldn't be allowed.

Also, do you have any proof that if you can't afford it there won't be a fine?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 07:33:57 PM by Onyx Dragon »

00XJ

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2012, 11:13:45 PM »
Self righteous pretentious hypocritical assholes piss me off. I'm making a long story short because I've had some wine, but basically this douche bag named Jim Maddox who is one of the "leaders" at the church I used to go to (therefore, facebook friends with some of my family and friends) commented on my friend Sara's status about how she doesn't like that Obamacare passed.

Said some shit basically about how anyone who disagrees with obama care is an idiot.

In the past, he's insulted BOTH of my parents (who aren't internet saavy enough to know when to NOT engage in an internet argument...), and he's supposedly good friends with my mom's mom and sister.

So he replies to me "Nick there is a reason you haven't been asked to be my facebook friend".

LOL... really? And this is a "LEADER" in the church.

My response to him:

 Yeah, not being your internet friend has really been a burden on my life, let me tell you... It's been really hard not reading the condescending, insulting posts of a delusional old man who can't just disagree with someone, but has to be a dick to them, too. Truly, my life is incomplete without the inclusion of a self centered, arrogant, hypocritical man who with one hand will praise the lord, and with the other gives a middle finger to those who don't share his political opinions. YOU are one of the people who drove me from the church - because I never want to be anything like you. I've witnessed you engaging in debates on Facebook time and time again, and every time you resort to petty insults and childish behavior. You are a pathetic man, and I truly hope that one day you realize how you are bastardizing the word of god every time you talk down to someone the way you do. Don't you EVER disrespect my family again, the way you have done in the past. There, go sleep on that you hypocritical asshole.

Darcsun

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2012, 01:50:43 AM »
Yeah, like the system doesn't play us as well :lol:  It doesn't change the fact that forcing me to buy something I don't want/need shouldn't be allowed.


This is the voice of stupid fuck/complete tards everywhere.   Seriously, I have to pay for your ass because you are, and always have been, a stupid fuck.  Because your bullshit, not planning ahead ass gets sick, my premiums have to go up each year.  Seriously, fuck you for being dumb and costing me money.

Onyx, ten years later, your still the self righteous voice of ignorant people everywhere that fuck it up for the rest of the world.  Iíll give you this though; youíve always been too dumb to be ashamed of anything you have ever said here.   That has to be comforting.

Rammstein4Ever

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2012, 01:53:45 AM »
http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/vb8vs/eli5_what_exactly_is_obamacare_and_what_did_it/

Read the first few replies on this post, the bill is cited in the statements... further down you'll see a comment that sort of sums it up in a nut shell.

"Bob: Hi, insurance company. I'd like to buy some health insurance.

Insurance company: No. You had cancer when you were 3 years old, and the cancer could come back. We're not selling health insurance to you.

Bob: It's not my fault I got cancer when I was three! Besides, that was years ago!

Insurance company: If we sell insurance to you, we'll probably lose money, and we're not doing it.

Bob: But I need insurance more than anyone! My cancer might come back!

Insurance company: We don't care. We're not selling you insurance.

Obama: Hey, that's totally not fair. Bob is right, he does need insurance! Sell Bob some insurance.

Insurance company: If we have to, I guess.

Mary: This is cool. Obama said the insurance company has to sell insurance to anyone who needs it.

Sam: Hey, I have an idea. I'm going to stop paying for health insurance. If I get sick, I can always go buy some insurance then. The insurance company won't be able to say no, because Obama's told them they have to sell it to anyone who needs it!

Dave: that's a great idea! I'm not paying for health insurance either, at least not until I get sick.

Insurance company: Hey! If everyone stops paying for insurance, we'll go bankrupt!

Obama: Oh come on Sam and Dave, that's not fair either.

Dave: I don't care. It saves me money.

Obama: Oh for god's sake. Sam, Dave, you have to keep paying for health insurance, and not wait until you're sick. You too, Mary and Bob.

Mary: But I'm broke! I can't buy insurance! I just don't have any money.

Obama: Mary, show me your piggy bank. Oh, wow, you really are broke. Ok, tell you what. You still have to buy insurance, but I'll help you pay 95% of the cost.

Mary: thank you.

Obama: I need an aspirin.

Insurance company: We're not paying for that aspirin."
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 01:54:06 AM by Rammstein4Ever »

00XJ

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2012, 08:14:17 AM »
Again, the issue with Obamacare isn't the concept of healthcare reform - OBVIOUSLY that is important.

But as par for the course, when congress gets their hands on a hot button issue like this, they take advantage of it and use it to shoehorn extra legislation that takes away more of our rights.

The very fact that you will be taxed for not having health insurance is absolute Grade A bullshit, and it doesn't matter how great it is that everyone now has the opportunity to get health insurance, what we should be focusing on is how we're letting the Government trample our rights and we're not doing anything about it.

Onyx Dragon

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2012, 09:10:23 AM »
Allow me to say first, as of 6 pm tonight you are banned for the following rule violation:

Quote from: forum rules
NO FLAMING WILL BE TOLERATED IN THIS FORUM

This is the voice of stupid fuck/complete tards everywhere.   Seriously, I have to pay for your ass because you are, and always have been, a stupid fuck.  Because your bullshit, not planning ahead ass gets sick, my premiums have to go up each year.  Seriously, fuck you for being dumb and costing me money.

Darc, you've never paid for me.  I've always had my own insurance, or on my parents before I turned 18 (back in 1992).  So, in other words, back when you were living in your white trash world in Detroit, I had insurance.  So your premiums aren't going up because of me.  My mom worked extra jobs to keep us off things such as welfare.  I've worked extra jobs to make ends meet to stay off public assistance.  So nice try, but as usual, you have no clue what you are talking about.  As usual, you missed the point of my statement and flew off on a tantrum.  Some things never change.

Quote
Onyx, ten years later, your still the self righteous voice of ignorant people everywhere that fuck it up for the rest of the world.  Iíll give you this though; youíve always been too dumb to be ashamed of anything you have ever said here.   That has to be comforting.

This coming from someone who assumed I don't have health insurance.  Someone who, if he did a little research on this very forum, would realize I've complained about having issues with my insurance company.  Some one who, had they read my post and thought about it instead of just letting his verbal diarrhea hit the forum, would have realized that my problem is with forcing me to buy something.  So my problem is with people like you who can't live their own lives, but wants the government to run his life for him.  There are other options, better options, that could have been used instead.  This is a slippery slope, and if you can't see that I pity you.

Also, remember, the people of this forum know who you are.  We remember your racists comments.  We know that you're trailer park trash dressed up in a suit.  We know exactly how you've treated certain members of this forum.  We know that you play as if you've never been anything but tolerant to your wife.  In short, we know the real you, and we know you're a hypocrite.  So the next time you decide to go off on a diatribe here, you better make sure you fully understand WTF is being said, WTF is meant, and most of all, WTF you are talking about.  There is one thing you prove, Darc.  You prove that someone who has a college degree isn't necessarily smart.  They just think they are.  At 6 pm you will be banned for 3 days.

Daemon

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2012, 09:46:16 AM »
Easy, end stupid wars, cut defense budget by 350 billion, quit poking our fucking noses in every ones business like a bunch of oold lady busybodies, and it's paid for.

Personally, I wish they would quit calling it Obamacare as this doesn't really resemble his innitial proposal. This is congresscare. They are the ones who made it.

I personally would have preferred something along the lines of Australia's medical set up, but alas the far right Neo cons insist on perpetrating this every man, woman, and child for themselves mentality while attempting to hide behind the guise of up keeping the founding fathers intentions. Sadly, the founding fathers would all vehemently disagree with the current popular opinion going on in this country. Sad, really.

Nava

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2012, 12:28:56 PM »
Yeah, like the system doesn't play us as well :lol:  It doesn't change the fact that forcing me to buy something I don't want/need shouldn't be allowed.

Also, do you have any proof that if you can't afford it there won't be a fine?

Rammstein cited it for me down there.  Also, honestly... its either the fee, or the insurance companies keep their "Pre-existing conditions" penalties and such.  The fee is just a trade off for those.  I mean, yeah, I don't want to be forced to pay either, but at least it is something I can understand and not like... a tax on having brown hair or something.

00XJ

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2012, 03:13:05 PM »
Rammstein cited it for me down there.  Also, honestly... its either the fee, or the insurance companies keep their "Pre-existing conditions" penalties and such.  The fee is just a trade off for those.  I mean, yeah, I don't want to be forced to pay either, but at least it is something I can understand and not like... a tax on having brown hair or something.

But that's exactly it, how do we know that this isn't just a gateway for the Government to step in and start imposing taxes on other things?

You drive a car older than 2007. TAX! You drive over 30 miles a day. TAX!


TheBlackShed

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2012, 03:26:07 PM »
But that's exactly it, how do we know that this isn't just a gateway for the Government to step in and start imposing taxes on other things?

You drive a car older than 2007. TAX! You drive over 30 miles a day. TAX!

HOPEFULLY you would think that if that happens people might, I dunno, start to actually vote. But the problem is, this country would only try to impeach someone for a sex scandal because it creates good media, you could piss all over the constitution and people's rights (detaining an american citizen for an indefinate amount of time,(that did pass right, or am i just an idiot)) and people just fall in line.

The only thing that seems to get a response from people is when you try to fuck with the web :lol:

« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 03:26:46 PM by TheBlackShed »
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Nava

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2012, 04:16:23 PM »
But that's exactly it, how do we know that this isn't just a gateway for the Government to step in and start imposing taxes on other things?

You drive a car older than 2007. TAX! You drive over 30 miles a day. TAX!



Slippery Slope Fallacy?

I fail to see how a fee to keep insurance companies from going bankrupt is in any way similar to those examples.

Daemon

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2012, 04:19:24 PM »
But that's exactly it, how do we know that this isn't just a gateway for the Government to step in and start imposing taxes on other things?

You drive a car older than 2007. TAX! You drive over 30 miles a day. TAX!



Gateway? Congress has had the power to lay taxes since 1787 as long as the funds are used for the good and general welfare of the American people.

If they pass a tax that has no direct reasoning aimed at helping the public, it can be challenged and struck down. All in Article I Section 8 of the Constitution.

Onyx Dragon

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2012, 04:33:49 PM »
Rammstein cited it for me down there.  Also, honestly... its either the fee, or the insurance companies keep their "Pre-existing conditions" penalties and such.  The fee is just a trade off for those.  I mean, yeah, I don't want to be forced to pay either, but at least it is something I can understand and not like... a tax on having brown hair or something.

Then Congress or the White House can make a law saying that it's illegal to discriminate against someone with pre-existing conditions.  Personally, I don't think the government should be involved 100% in medical insurance or pharmaceuticals.  If they want to say "you can make so much per pill" or "you can make so much per person" then fine.  But forcing someone to have something is ridiculous.  How long until I, someone who has insurance, has to pay for someone who doesn't?

Slippery Slope Fallacy?

That would apply if the government weren't already doing shit that people were saying was a slippery slope fallacy before they did it already.  The government is out of control and needs to be reigned in.  It's not a slippery slope fallacy if there is a legitimate chance that it could happen, and the current government (not just the Obama administration, Bush's administration was included in this) has shown little concern over the rights and the welfare of the people.

Quote
I fail to see how a fee to keep insurance companies from going bankrupt is in any way similar to those examples.

Yeah...it's a way to force you to do something.  While I believe the government can and should force us to do somethings (such as not murdering people, keeping a reasonable speed on the interstate...though I think the current speed is BS) I do not think it should at all be allowed to say "you have to buy insurance".  Again, NOTHING in this world is free.  Mark my words, this will cost us somehow.


Oh, and Daemon, I agree.  I liked Obama's plan, but the one that Congress (controlled by his own party at the time at that!) forced on him is shit.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 04:34:37 PM by Onyx Dragon »

James

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2012, 06:10:01 PM »
Going in to get one of my free semi-annual dental cleanings with my tax payer funded free medical coverage.  What's going on?
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UberWasser

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2012, 01:57:07 AM »
Republican idea. Mitt Romney did it in Massachusetts. Suddenly it's a bad idea because of Obama. :-\

Pretty much end of story.

UberWasser

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Re: Obamacare Wins.
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2012, 02:04:55 AM »
The government is out of control and needs to be reigned in.  It's not a slippery slope fallacy if there is a legitimate chance that it could happen, and the current government (not just the Obama administration, Bush's administration was included in this) has shown little concern over the rights and the welfare of the people.

I wanted to address this seperately - first, I'd like to see you actually provide some sort of list of the rights that the Obama administration has been taking away from you. The only one you've addressed so far is your "right" to not buy insurance. As noted by Justice Roberts in his defense of the Affordable Care Act you still have that right; you can choose to not buy insurance all day long. You will simply pay an approx $95/year tax. You also have the right to not buy a house, but you will pay higher taxes since you can't deduct the interest from your income tax liability. A tax on something is not a direct infringement on your right to do said thing.

Second, as an aside - do you also apply your statement to the actual attack on women's rights to health care that the Republican party is undertaking? Or are you going to be hypocritical?