Author Topic: Department of Defense giving military surplus war hardware to cops?  (Read 6709 times)

Joshua

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Re: Department of Defense giving military surplus war hardware to cops?
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2011, 06:46:46 PM »
Also....we have the National Guard for a reason, which isn't to be sent overseas to be used as cannon fodder like was done in Iraq, but rather to handle disasters "homeland security" incidents at home. They are there to handle things normal LEOs should not be equipped for (military style operations) but that do not require the full force of regular military intervention.

Not entirely correct. You are confusing the fuzzy line between the organized militia, and the unorganized militia.

The U.S. hasn't used the unorganized militia in any significant way since the Militia Act of 1903, when the organized militia was federalized. This ended the long history of independent, state controlled militia units, answerable to only their respective states' governors. With the passage of that act, the various state militia units became part of the federal army, and stripped much of the remaining power from the states. The "National Guard" as it exists today is a Federal entity, under the direct command of the U.S. Army. As such, it is available for deployment OUTSIDE of the borders of the U.S.A. This is a very obvious difference and distinction from the unorganized and old State Militia units prior to the Militia Act of 1903: They were NOT to be used in anything but the defense of the U.S.A., and to the defense of their individual States in particular. This is one reason why the attempt to invade British Canada with militia units in the War of 1812 failed; the militias refused to invade foreign territory.

To sum up, the National Guard is part of the Federal Army. No militia unit ever was under the direct control of the Feds, with no say from the state they originated from. Thus was the final "teeth" of the independent, sovereign States removed in 1903, which started in 1861.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 06:50:44 PM by Joshua »
...and either quite drinking or quite posting because you're going into some sort of weird AMERICA 1776 FUCK YEAH mode.

James

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Re: Department of Defense giving military surplus war hardware to cops?
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2011, 06:51:44 PM »
Wrong.  That National Guard can be called up under Title 10 (Federalized) and always has been.  They have never been considered strictly Title 32.  The Guard has been in every major US conflict since the 1630's if you count the original organizations.  One of the oldest formal military regiments still functioning in the world.  The National Guard does NOT exist to perform extra-military actions that local police cannot perform.  The NG can perform LE operations but under a far more restricted ROE.


Quote
The Army National Guard’s federal mission is to maintain well-trained, well-equipped
units available for prompt mobilization during war and provide assistance during national
emergencies (such as natural disasters or civil disturbances).  The ARNG’s units (or any
Reserve component forces) may be activated in a number of ways as prescribed by public
law.  Most of the laws for Federal Mission operations are in Title 10 of the U.S. Code.

When serving under Title 10, “active duty” means full-time duty in the active military
service of the United States.  Title 10 allows the President to “federalize” National Guard
forces by ordering them to active duty in their reserve component status or by calling
them into Federal service in their militia status.  This includes the following forms of
active service:
o Voluntary Order to Active Duty.  With his or her consent and the consent of
the Governor.
o Partial Mobilization. In time of national emergency declared by the President
for any unit or any member for not more than 24 consecutive months.
o Presidential Reserve Call Up. When the President determines that it is
necessary to augment the active forces for any operational mission for any
unit or any member for not more than 270 days.
o Federal Aid for State Governments. Whenever an insurrection occurs in any
State against its government, the President may, upon the request of its
legislature or of its governor call into Federal service such of the militia of the
other States. This is a statutory exception to the Posse Comitatus Act.
o Use of Militia and Armed Forces to Enforce Federal Authority.  Whenever the
President considers that unlawful obstructions, assemblages, or rebellion make
it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State or
Territory, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State.
This is another statutory exception to Posse Comitatus.
o Interference with State and Federal law.  The President, by using the militia or
the armed forces, or both, or by any other means, shall take such measures as
he considers necessary to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic
violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy.
o Air and Army National Guard.  Air and Army National Guard can specifically
be called into Federal service in case of invasion, rebellion, or inability to
execute Federal law with active forces.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 07:02:06 PM by James »
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Meatywand

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Re: Department of Defense giving military surplus war hardware to cops?
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2011, 07:00:39 PM »
I worded that wrong, my fault, I just meant that the National Guard would be a better alternative to local police forces when it comes to performing military style operations on US Soil. As far as them being deployed....their training is quite up to the level of full time Army units (obviously) and we could put them to much better us patrolling the US/Mexico Border or assisting Homeland Security instead of dropping that in the lap of local PDs or Sheriff's Departments.
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James

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Re: Department of Defense giving military surplus war hardware to cops?
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2011, 07:29:12 PM »
They used to have a much bigger role.  Army and Marine Reserve units until some soft heads decided they might actually kill drug runners if they were shot at.  Reserve units can only operate at the local level in parallel to local law enforcement.  Understandably, the Armed Forces are under much more scrutiny operating on American soil than they are overseas.  Hopefully with all the returning service members some of them can be used to police up the border in the near future.
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Onyx Dragon

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Re: Department of Defense giving military surplus war hardware to cops?
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2011, 11:16:09 PM »
Not entirely correct. You are confusing the fuzzy line between the organized militia, and the unorganized militia.

The U.S. hasn't used the unorganized militia in any significant way since the Militia Act of 1903, when the organized militia was federalized. This ended the long history of independent, state controlled militia units, answerable to only their respective states' governors. With the passage of that act, the various state militia units became part of the federal army, and stripped much of the remaining power from the states. The "National Guard" as it exists today is a Federal entity, under the direct command of the U.S. Army. As such, it is available for deployment OUTSIDE of the borders of the U.S.A. This is a very obvious difference and distinction from the unorganized and old State Militia units prior to the Militia Act of 1903: They were NOT to be used in anything but the defense of the U.S.A., and to the defense of their individual States in particular. This is one reason why the attempt to invade British Canada with militia units in the War of 1812 failed; the militias refused to invade foreign territory.

To sum up, the National Guard is part of the Federal Army. No militia unit ever was under the direct control of the Feds, with no say from the state they originated from. Thus was the final "teeth" of the independent, sovereign States removed in 1903, which started in 1861.

This isn't entirely true.  Virginia still maintains a state militia that answers only to the governor, doesn't leave the state for anything, and unless an army is marching to or through the state, it doesn't maintain arms.  If an attack were to come, Virginia's state militia would then mobilize and be given arms.  They take the pressure off of our federalized state militia by responding to in state natural disasters.  They also help out at the request of local and state police with security for events, etc.  There was an issue that occurred during the beginning of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars where some special forces broke into a state armory.  The Va State militia is responsible for the security of the armories when the federal Va State Reserves are out of the country.  Well, these special forces were upset because of the whole thing with troops not having all the necessary equipment.  So they beat up the guards, stole some arms, and took off with it.  Needless to say, they were arrested later.  Natural disasters is another thing they respond to.  It's an all volunteer group that supplies their own uniforms, and when responding to emergencies, or attending events, they use their POVs.  Or at least they used to, pretty sure that hasn't changed though.  The governor of Va also has the ability to call up all able bodied men into this state militia between the ages of 18 and 65 in case of an attack.  The unit I was in was the Black Horse Brigade. 

http://www.blackhorsevdf.org/

Hermie

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Re: Department of Defense giving military surplus war hardware to cops?
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2011, 11:20:44 PM »
This isn't entirely true.  Virginia still maintains a state militia that answers only to the governor, doesn't leave the state for anything, and unless an army is marching to or through the state, it doesn't maintain arms.  If an attack were to come, Virginia's state militia would then mobilize and be given arms.  They take the pressure off of our federalized state militia by responding to in state natural disasters.  They also help out at the request of local and state police with security for events, etc.  There was an issue that occurred during the beginning of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars where some special forces broke into a state armory.  The Va State militia is responsible for the security of the armories when the federal Va State Reserves are out of the country.  Well, these special forces were upset because of the whole thing with troops not having all the necessary equipment.  So they beat up the guards, stole some arms, and took off with it.  Needless to say, they were arrested later.  Natural disasters is another thing they respond to.  It's an all volunteer group that supplies their own uniforms, and when responding to emergencies, or attending events, they use their POVs.  Or at least they used to, pretty sure that hasn't changed though.  The governor of Va also has the ability to call up all able bodied men into this state militia between the ages of 18 and 65 in case of an attack.  The unit I was in was the Black Horse Brigade. 

http://www.blackhorsevdf.org/

What are house prices like there?

Caryn

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Re: Department of Defense giving military surplus war hardware to cops?
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2011, 07:48:21 AM »
What are house prices like there?
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Depending on where in the state, housing prices differ greatly.
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