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Technomancy => Automotive Tech => Topic started by: Grim91Z on April 03, 2013, 12:46:21 AM

Title: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Grim91Z on April 03, 2013, 12:46:21 AM
Well today the car decided not to start again. Well it did, but then died immediately after. This time the security light was flashing. We tried turning the key to the ON position for 15 minutes 3 times and that didn't work. My girlfriend got fed up and took it to a shop her family has trusted. They told us the key that came with the car was not original and that one had to be programmed for the car. 125 bucks later and the car now drives again, but the light it still flashing. They said that should go away soon and that if it doesn't, the control module might be going out. I asked if she meant the ECU or the VATS. She said neither, and that the ABS and airbag lights (have been on since we bought it) being on could have been the culprit to a blown fuse causing a control module to burn out. She adds on that in a couple days we could be back to square one, needing to replace said module for 500 bucks. She really didn't sound like she knew what she was talking about. I'm thinking she meant the ignition system.

Anyway, I know that GM's security systems are plagued and never stand a chance to last more than 7 or 8 years. I understand that these things can be bypassed (had a third gen that needed that treatment). Would the new key be a savior or should we continue to be worried?
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Onyx Dragon on April 03, 2013, 01:13:09 AM
PCM for GMs.  Check to see if there's a remote start system in place.  My 01 GT had an aftermarket remote start and did the same thing.  Even if the security light stayed on it would drive.  There's a specific way to reprogram the key to the car.  If it wasn't the key that came with the car, it wouldn't have started at all.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Grim91Z on April 03, 2013, 07:02:19 AM
Thats what I thought. I know the transponders in the keys can wear out. How would I check for any evidence of a remote starter?

I really dont trust shops and I think theyre trying to pull one on us. They didnt even want to release the car to us when it was fixed. I told my gf to call them back on that one.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Onyx Dragon on April 03, 2013, 07:14:48 AM
Thats what I thought. I know the transponders in the keys can wear out. How would I check for any evidence of a remote starter?

I really dont trust shops and I think theyre trying to pull one on us. They didnt even want to release the car to us when it was fixed. I told my gf to call them back on that one.

Depends where they put the key in the circuit.  How many keys did you get when you purchased the car?
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: MiniVanMan on April 03, 2013, 07:40:07 AM
Damn dude, no offense but you got screwed. There are a lot of things it could be. I'd pull up your stakes and head to a reputable dealership at this point. You know, one with an image to maintain. You'll pay a bit more for the work but you're a lot less likely to be jerked around.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Onyx Dragon on April 03, 2013, 04:45:41 PM
Before you go running off to a stealership, do you have more than one key?
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Grim91Z on April 03, 2013, 07:44:30 PM
Just one key.

My girlfriend said the light turned off, but after a little bit of driving it came back on.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: MadFairlane on April 03, 2013, 07:56:57 PM
Time to get rid of it me thinks...

Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Onyx Dragon on April 03, 2013, 09:30:53 PM
Just one key.

My girlfriend said the light turned off, but after a little bit of driving it came back on.

It might be wearing out.  Buy another key, then go through the reprogramming steps to match the key to your car.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: MiniVanMan on April 03, 2013, 09:48:55 PM
Here's something I found... I know that supposedly the shop has done this already, but it wouldn't hurt to go ahead a try just for shits.

Quote
If you replace a key, theft deterrent control module or the powertrain control module you will have to perform a relearn for the car to start. Most of the Grand Prix of this generation will use Passkey 3 systems. PK3 will be stamped on the metal part of the key near the plastic head. Passkey 3 systems use a transponder in the key that uses radio frequency communication with a theft deterrent module (I suspect this is same as body control module) and the PCM to enable the fuel injectors and allow the car to start and run. If the communication is disrupted between any 1 of the 3 components your car will start and run for about 5 seconds before shutting down. I found a pdf formatted Tech Tips at this link . Ill reprint the instructions for Passkey 3 below. If you care to know why I had to learn this you can read my tale of woe at the end of this post.

In order to initiate the relearn process:
1. Insert a master key (black head) into the ignition switch.

2. Turn to the On position without starting the engine. The security light should illuminate and stay on.

3. Wait approximately 10 minutes or until the security light turns off.

4. Turn off the ignition switch and wait 5 seconds.

5. Repeat steps 2 through 4 two more times with the same key.

6. Turn the ignition off. The vehicle will now learn the key transponder information on the next start cycle.

7. Start the vehicle. If vehicle starts and runs normally, and security light is off, the relearn is complete.

If additional keys are to be relearned:
8. Turn the vehicle off.

9. Insert the next key to be learned and turn the ignition switch to the On position within 10 seconds of removing the previously used key.

10. Wait for the security light to turn off. It should happen quickly.
You may not even notice the light come on, because it will learn the key transponder immediately.

11. Repeat steps 8 through 10 for any additional keys.

It's also possible that you have the wrong key type.

PassKey was the old style, and now it's PassLock.

Problem is, PassKey once used the same style key as the early PassLock systems... so they might have given you a PassLOCK key when you need a PassKEY key.

(http://www.ricksfreeautorepairadvice.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/gm-keys.jpg)

you can see that the PK3 key and the first PassLock key are nearly the same. They probably got you a PassLock key... and I've read that it's still possible to program them to a PassKey system, just that they don't work right and cause all sorts of problems.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Onyx Dragon on April 03, 2013, 10:22:15 PM
The simplest way to tell is if you can see the microchip (which you should).
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: MiniVanMan on April 03, 2013, 10:27:40 PM
The simplest way to tell is if you can see the microchip (which you should).

They're inside the head of the key on the PK3 and up ones.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Onyx Dragon on April 03, 2013, 11:17:00 PM
They're inside the head of the key on the PK3 and up ones.

Right.  So he should see them.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: MiniVanMan on April 03, 2013, 11:22:07 PM
Right.  So he should see them.

If he pries the plastic apart, yes.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Onyx Dragon on April 04, 2013, 12:10:33 AM
If he pries the plastic apart, yes.

No, his system should use the PK2 system.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Grim91Z on April 04, 2013, 01:07:58 AM
When my gf gets home I'll take a closer look at the key, but I'm pretty sure it said PK3.

How do I go about getting a new key?
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: MiniVanMan on April 04, 2013, 08:17:47 AM
No, his system should use the PK2 system.

Not a 2000.

Again I hate to sound like a promoter of dealerships, but you're going to find a more reliable source of knowledge and training at one. I would at least go to one and ask how much a PK3 key costs.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Onyx Dragon on April 04, 2013, 02:52:49 PM
Not a 2000.

Again I hate to sound like a promoter of dealerships, but you're going to find a more reliable source of knowledge and training at one. I would at least go to one and ask how much a PK3 key costs.

I'll have to dig up one of my old keys, but I thought it had the resister on the outside.

As for the dealership, just ask about the price of the key.  Don't take it in to them until you've tried the relearn process.  Going to them this early in the process is silly and might just cost you too much money for something you could have fixed yourself.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: MiniVanMan on April 04, 2013, 04:11:32 PM
Sure it wasn't the firebird? What year was that?
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Onyx Dragon on April 04, 2013, 04:25:46 PM
Sure it wasn't the firebird? What year was that?

2001, and it has PK2.  I looked for my 01 GT's keys before work but couldn't find any, I'll look more when I get home.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: MiniVanMan on April 04, 2013, 05:13:03 PM
I can't speak for CERTAIN about the 2000 GP but my girlfriends 01 is PK3. Could be that the early 00's were PK2 and the rest were PK3, too.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Onyx Dragon on April 04, 2013, 07:15:40 PM
I can't speak for CERTAIN about the 2000 GP but my girlfriends 01 is PK3. Could be that the early 00's were PK2 and the rest were PK3, too.

It's possible there was a split run.  My 95 Cherokee is a split run Jeep.  Early 95s were OBDI, late 95s were OBDII.  I'm certain I remember seeing that resistor chip on my 01's keys.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Grim91Z on April 04, 2013, 09:39:08 PM
I lied, it's a PK3. I think it was the old one that was PK2.

Is the stealership the only place to acquire a new key?
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: MiniVanMan on April 04, 2013, 09:56:28 PM
Ebay... I have no idea how much they cost. But like Onyx said, try that relearn procedure I posted above before even bothering to get another key. The shop may have just fucked it up. The reason i keep suggesting dealerships is because when you go to a GM dealership, you know their technicians deal with GM vehicles all day long and are TRAINED on GM vehicles. Go to a private shop and who the hell knows what training the mechanic has. He may be ASE certified, but dealership technicians go through more than just ASE training, they are constantly taking classes to keep their GM certification up to date.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Grim91Z on April 04, 2013, 10:00:02 PM
That's why dealerships cost more. This shop is shady as fuck, and after we left it their her parents tell us to stop going there. Why we find this out afterwards (I thought they were trusted, after all) beats me.

Ill do the procedure tomorrow after I change the t-stat.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Onyx Dragon on April 04, 2013, 10:30:26 PM
Ebay... I have no idea how much they cost. But like Onyx said, try that relearn procedure I posted above before even bothering to get another key. The shop may have just fucked it up. The reason i keep suggesting dealerships is because when you go to a GM dealership, you know their technicians deal with GM vehicles all day long and are TRAINED on GM vehicles. Go to a private shop and who the hell knows what training the mechanic has. He may be ASE certified, but dealership technicians go through more than just ASE training, they are constantly taking classes to keep their GM certification up to date.

Well, the problem is that if it's wearing out, he needs to do the relearn on a new key so he has a good backup when the old one finally just gives up.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Grim91Z on April 05, 2013, 01:05:41 AM
Girlfriend called the shop and asked why the light flashes off and on. They told her the key guy must have bypassed system. She said they sounded unsure. Now I see why her family stopped going there.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Onyx Dragon on April 05, 2013, 01:55:50 AM
Girlfriend called the shop and asked why the light flashes off and on. They told her the key guy must have bypassed system. She said they sounded unsure. Now I see why her family stopped going there.


The security light being on or flashing doesn't affect the car if you can start it.  Not sure why it turns on if the car is running.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Grim91Z on April 05, 2013, 03:26:18 PM
I got rid of the light, for now.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Onyx Dragon on April 05, 2013, 07:56:41 PM
I got rid of the light, for now.

How?
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Grim91Z on April 05, 2013, 08:00:05 PM
The trick on page one. Ignition on accessories for 10 minutes, turn off for 5 seconds, repeat two more times. Turn on car, light is gone. And after a few starts it has remained that way.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: MiniVanMan on April 05, 2013, 08:14:55 PM
Idiots probably didn't even do the relearn procedure... yeah, never go to that shop again.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Onyx Dragon on April 05, 2013, 09:08:17 PM
Yeah.  Still, you'll want to buy a second key just to make sure that yours isn't having issues.  Always good to have a second key just in case anyway.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Grim91Z on April 05, 2013, 09:55:56 PM
Especially with a female owner, I will be ordering a second key. :lol:

How would the key work without the relearn procedure?
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Onyx Dragon on April 05, 2013, 09:58:23 PM
Especially with a female owner, I will be ordering a second key. :lol:

How would the key work without the relearn procedure?

I think it starts for like, 3 seconds, then shuts off.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: MiniVanMan on April 05, 2013, 10:05:35 PM
That's how they're supposed to work. If they bypassed the security system then it'll still run the vehicle... just with the light flashing. They must have bypassed the system because they could take 10 seconds to google the fucking relearn procedure.

This is why I never take my vehicles to private shops.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Grim91Z on April 05, 2013, 10:39:35 PM
I think it starts for like, 3 seconds, then shuts off.
That's what it was doing before.

The stupid shop told us it couldn't be bypassed, that it was some kind of module that can short out. I'm sorry I let her take it there but I told her no more shops like that. Only trusted shops (there are a few, believe it or not) or in dire needs, a stealership. I'm glad I didn't let them keep the car for "further testing".

Forgot to mention, as we were leaving they said they scanned the computer and a torque converter code was thrown, couldn't even tell us the number. They cleared the system. Now some more driving is in order to get it smogged. Luckily I found a cheater (http://repairpal.com/how-to-perform-a-basic-drive-cycle) sheet.

Anyway, thanks for your inputs.
Title: Re: 2000 Grand prix and GM's woeful security system
Post by: Onyx Dragon on April 05, 2013, 11:50:39 PM
That's how they're supposed to work. If they bypassed the security system then it'll still run the vehicle... just with the light flashing. They must have bypassed the system because they could take 10 seconds to google the fucking relearn procedure.

This is why I never take my vehicles to private shops.

Not entirely correct.  The system is definitely not perfect.  Mine used to do that and it was brand new.